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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:27 pm 
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As a former player, Linden has always been a draft and development guy and this process can take a long time, involving putting the cheque book away at Free Agency time.

This process does not always align with business objectives. I can imagine a scenario where ownership can clearly see the business is no longer performing well as it used to be -- and Benning/ Weisbrod told the Aquilini's what they wanted to hear -- that their plan could accelerate the re-build plus get butts in seats and good for business. Not a hard sell for Francesco. Aquilini talks to Linden who clearly had a longer, more drawn out timeline which is NOT what he wanted to hear. Linden gets shown the door. Four years at the helm and ownership wanted to shake up the front office.

Not sure if that qualifies as a conspiracy but it is now become clear that those Free Agency signings were Bennings, not Lindens. Either way, the past 2 years have been better than than Linden's first two. The re-build would have been much further along had they realized from the beginning that you can't serve two masters -- a rebuild and the quick fix.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Well...it's Simmons, who is kind of a thug himself, but it's interesting nonetheless.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Pokecheque wrote:
Well...it's Simmons, who is kind of a thug himself, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Oh really? Like a liar or just big on hyperbole?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Logical Progression wrote:
Oh really? Like a liar or just big on hyperbole?


I just think he's a big meathead, that whole nonsense with Phil Kessel and the hot dogs is probably the best example of it. I just don't think he's a very good journalist, nor do I think he's good at the writing. I don't know if that's so much hyperbole as it is steering narratives in a way that fits his narrow-minded view of the game and various players. Of course a lot of sportswriters do that, not just Simmons. I wouldn't call him a liar, but definitely an asshole. :laugh:

All that said, I believe what he's saying here. I don't think hyperbole is needed when it comes to drama in Vancouver.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:42 pm 
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It's a shame that there's probably an entire generation of fans in Vancouver who will only remember Trevor for his short, disastrous stint as an executive and not the player and humanitarian. But I suppose if one good thing were to come of all this, it'll be the repair of his reputation.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Pokecheque wrote:
It's a shame that there's probably an entire generation of fans in Vancouver who will only remember Trevor for his short, disastrous stint as an executive and not the player and humanitarian. But I suppose if one good thing were to come of all this, it'll be the repair of his reputation.
I wouldn't characterize Linden's tenure as disastrous - this is all about meddling owners and the disasters they create all by themselves. If Linden were left to do his job from day one, the club would have been far better off today.

The Aquilini's can't really sole credit for the 2011 run as they had only been majority owners for a few years and most of the heavy lifting had already been done. Since then - utter disaster. The best business model is for people to be left to do their jobs. Players should be left to play, coaches to coach, managers to manage, and owners to do absolutely nothing but write cheques and watch their asset appreciate.

A PR nightmare for the Aquilinis - a nightmare of of their own making.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Well it was definitely a disastrous stint, even if, upon analysis, he doesn't deserve a majority of the blame.

Thing is, he was toeing the company line publicly from Day One, I didn't get the impression he and Benning were at odds. Did Trevor finally realize this wasn't working or has this been brewing for a while?

It's a shame, I really thought very highly of Weisbrod at one time. Dude walked away from a pretty cush position as an NBA GM to pursue his dream of working in the NHL and pretty much started from the bottom. But in hindsight, he should've stuck to basketball.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:55 pm 
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Agreed. There is plenty of blame to go around when an organization is dysfunctional. What makes sense now in hindsight were the mixed messages that kept surfacing surrounding "the plan". They weren't at odds publicly but there was a lot of saying one thing -- doing another. They were probably aligned at first but the past 2 seasons tell a different story once Linden became more well versed. Rumours are that Weisbrod was none to pleased with their subordinate role to Linden given his own tenure and experience in running a pro sports franchise.

Upon analysis, as you say -- how do you carry out a rebuild given the timing of having 2 aging franchise players in your lineup, signed for err, 4 more years?

Ownership has no one to blame but themselves for the Torts signing, which is when the rebuild should have started anyways. Gilles gets sacked, Linden hired. Then there was the mirage of the 2014 playoff qualification -- Jason Megna, Michael Chaput playing top 6 roles, the ridiculous Louie Ericksson signing, Gagner, I could go on. Moving out some aging assets with mixed results. They haven't won a playoff round since 2011 and missed the playoffs 5 of the past 6 seasons.

Solid drafting, everything else a train wreck. Guess that says it all.

This stint isn't nearly as bad as the Messier era circa 1998, but sheesh, pretty bad organization all around.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Yeah, I get the impression that Trevor felt he owed it to his friends and former teammates/linemates (I thought he and the Sedins worked pretty well actually) to try and keep the team competitive while they were still in uniform, but once that was done, it was time to face facts. Obviously Aquilini, Benning, and Weisbrod thought otherwise. That's a whole lotta speculation on my part though.

I wonder what'll happen if this team bottoms out once again? Something tells me they'll just be merely "bad" and Benningbrod'll be all "See? It's working!"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:02 am 
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When Trevor took over it was widely circulated that Gillis had told Aquillini that the club needed to be rebuilt. That was not acceptable to ownership and part of the reason Gillis was let go.

Even to me it was obvious. All there talent was over 30, except Edler and Taneve. The time was right to sell off assets before they depreciated anymore. Doing this would have being ugly but probably would have shortened the bottoming out and given the best chance to return to SC contention quickly.

Instead they chose to hang on hunting for a playoff spot, never putting themselves on track to rebuilding properly and being an excellent team.


Linden should have been able to see this when he signed on. If he didn't, he's not good enough for the job. If he did see it he accepted the role of playoff nibbler instead of tanking and rebuilding, and that was his choice. And letting go their advanced stats people was just dumb. Nucks were into this earlier than most teams and now they've regressed below most management groups. Again this is on Linden.

Don't feel to sorry for him, he new what he was getting into.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:52 am 
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Fogghorn wrote:
When Trevor took over it was widely circulated that Gillis had told Aquillini that the club needed to be rebuilt. That was not acceptable to ownership and part of the reason Gillis was let go. Instead they chose to hang on hunting for a playoff spot, never putting themselves on track to rebuilding properly and being an excellent team.

Linden should have been able to see this when he signed on. If he didn't, he's not good enough for the job. If he did see it he accepted the role of playoff nibbler instead of tanking and rebuilding, and that was his choice. And letting go their advanced stats people was just dumb. Nucks were into this earlier than most teams and now they've regressed below most management groups. Again this is on Linden.

Don't feel to sorry for him, he new what he was getting into.
Agreed, they are all big boys -- but this debacle is on ownership.

Linden obviously knew what he was getting into, but he wouldn't have gotten the job had he advanced what you suggest in his job interview given the context of the Gilles firing.

The issue as I see it is that ownership interference claims are far more palpable than mere innuendo and basically amount to systematic organizational dysfunction since around 2013. The problem is the Aquilini's only listen to what they want to hear. It has been well documented that they are extremely difficult to work with -- just ask anyone who has worked in the Canucks hockey operations department. Two years into Linden's tenure, stories began to surface about philosophical differences within hockey operations. Even if we grant that Linden got the job on the premise of playoff contention, two years in it became quite clear that he tried to shift the organizational plan but there was only one acceptable mantra within the organization. Any dissenting views would not be tolerated.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Logical Progression wrote:

Linden obviously knew what he was getting into, but he wouldn't have gotten the job had he advanced what you suggest in his job interview given the context of the Gilles firing.



The he shouldn't have taken the job. There is a big difference between someone taking a job to make a living and keeping the lights on and rent or mortgage paid and someone taking a job for personal career satisfaction. The latter has a lot more discretion and can easily walk away if they don't like the circumstances.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:15 am 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Logical Progression wrote:
Linden obviously knew what he was getting into, but he wouldn't have gotten the job had he advanced what you suggest in his job interview given the context of the Gilles firing.
The he shouldn't have taken the job. There is a big difference between someone taking a job to make a living and keeping the lights on and rent or mortgage paid and someone taking a job for personal career satisfaction. The latter has a lot more discretion and can easily walk away if they don't like the circumstances.
Suppose that is a subjective matter.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:35 am 
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Logical Progression wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
Logical Progression wrote:

Linden obviously knew what he was getting into, but he wouldn't have gotten the job had he advanced what you suggest in his job interview given the context of the Gilles firing.

The he shouldn't have taken the job. There is a big difference between someone taking a job to make a living and keeping the lights on and rent or mortgage paid and someone taking a job for personal career satisfaction. The latter has a lot more discretion and can easily walk away if they don't like the circumstances.
Suppose that is a subjective matter.


Option one: Actress sleeps with Harvey Weinstein to get a multimillion dollar role.

Option two: Minimum wage factory worker has to sleep with her supervisor or he'll switch her off day shift to afternoon. If she goes on afternoon's there will be no one to look after her 10 year old son and she will risk losing him to child services. If she loses the job she will likely be homeless.

Both of the situations are exploitative and coercive but there are many, many degree's difference between the two. If you consider exploitation of someone seeking career satisfaction the same as someone desperately trying to survive as "being subjective" that is just a reflection of your personnel associative class bias.

Trevor is a multi-millionaire who knew what he was getting into and chose to go there anyways. End of story.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:38 am 
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Red herring. Wouldn't have mattered who took the job. Outcome would have been the same.

Edit: oh and also ad hominem


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:35 pm 
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I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Trevor probably, naively, thought he could use his clout and charisma to steer the franchise the right direction and keep Aquilini's petulant and demanding persona tamped down, much like what Bryan Murray did with Eugene Melnyk in Ottawa, or Darryl Katz, who's basically an Oilers fanboy who kowtows to anyone from the Dynasty Days. I think he knew to an extent what he was getting into, but wasn't prepared for just how bad an owner Aquilini really is, and he clearly didn't anticipate Benning and Weisbrod betraying him.

Of course there's this.

Hockey Dipshit on Twitter wrote:
The idea that the “Linden was backstabbed by Benning” rumor was put out by Linden’s camp to paint him in a better light is really funny to me because it involves getting outsmarted by Jim Benning


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:40 pm 
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I'd also like to know what the general perception of a "rebuild" is these days. I mean, look at Toronto. Nonis was fired in 2015. They outright tanked it for what, two seasons? Three years later, they're contenders, or at least damned close. And that's keeping in mind that the previous regime left them with a number of hefty or outright bad contracts. The Pens got Sidney Crosby in 2005, won it all in 2009.

Yeah, I know, Vancouver has had shit luck in the draft lottery since, ever, but honestly, I don't get where this notion of "prolonged" rebuild is so feared. The only reason they ever last more than 2-3 years is because of incompetent management, like Vancouver, Edmonton, and Colorado. Even Buffalo is already looking worlds better at this point than they did just one calendar year previous.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Pokecheque wrote:
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Trevor probably, naively, thought he could use his clout and charisma to steer the franchise the right direction and keep Aquilini's petulant and demanding persona tamped down, much like what Bryan Murray did with Eugene Melnyk in Ottawa, or Darryl Katz, who's basically an Oilers fanboy who kowtows to anyone from the Dynasty Days. I think he knew to an extent what he was getting into, but wasn't prepared for just how bad an owner Aquilini really is, and he clearly didn't anticipate Benning and Weisbrod betraying him.

Of course there's this.

Hockey Dipshit on Twitter wrote:
The idea that the “Linden was backstabbed by Benning” rumor was put out by Linden’s camp to paint him in a better light is really funny to me because it involves getting outsmarted by Jim Benning
:lol: Pretty sure it was positioning engineered by Weisbrod if at all. Have trouble wrapping my head around Benning as a conspiring duplicitous bastard.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Pokecheque wrote:
Yeah, I know, Vancouver has had shit luck in the draft lottery since, ever, but honestly, I don't get where this notion of "prolonged" rebuild is so feared. The only reason they ever last more than 2-3 years is because of incompetent management, like Vancouver, Edmonton, and Colorado. Even Buffalo is already looking worlds better at this point than they did just one calendar year previous.
Perhaps that's where the rhetoric of a "quick turnaound" comes from. Few strokes of luck here and there and poof.....


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Logical Progression wrote:
:lol: Pretty sure it was positioning engineered by Weisbrod if at all. Have trouble wrapping my head around Benning as a conspiring duplicitous bastard.


Well, he does have that slick jet-black hair now. I'm tellin' ya, add a cape he can drape over his face and a sinister laugh and you got yourself a proper villain!

I always imagine Benning talking in all caps because of Ian's comic strip. :lol:


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