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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:44 am 
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Jason Botchford was with Gillis and Gillman today and was saying they were working the phones hard, from what he could tell the owners definitely were not preventing Gillis from making a deal. The deal just was not there to be done.

Apparently Pittsburg only offered Sutter and 2 picks, which if that is the case is a pretty lowball offer in my opinion. It also re-raises a point that has been discussed in the past. That there is a lot of resentment in the league towards Gillis because of the work he used to do as a player agent and that GM's just won't deal with him (except Tallon which it seems is involved with 90% of the trades). That seems ridiculous to me but it does offer an alternative explanation as to why he so seldom makes trades.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:57 am 
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I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'd be floored if Gillis has actually made fewer trades than anyone else. The Canucks have been perfectly active each year he's been around. I don't buy, and have never bought, the idea that he's somehow "blackballed". All GMs have a prior history in hockey.

I think asking for a roster player was a little bit pointless if other offerings were good -- you don't be a seller at the deadline because you're trying to stay competitive for the season in question (Bosc explored this logic earlier -- why would the Wings or Flyers, say, trade a currently competent center for a slightly better but older one? It's not really worth their while).

I don't know if Kesler's value will be any higher in the offseason -- the market conditions at the deadline are pretty optimal for a seller -- but apart from the roster player issue, I don't think it's Gillis' "fault" that Kesler couldn't be moved when there wasn't actually that much on the table. We don't even know that Kesler would have allowed a trade to Anaheim.

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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:13 pm 
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Interesting bit of speculation. This is from HockeyWidow, a user on Canucks Corner (and possibly elsewhere) who has been shown to be pretty accurate before, and is about as realistic an "out-of-industry insider" as most in the message-board world have seen:

Quote:
Hearing some interesting things today. Contradicts a lot of other stuff. Apparently the deal for Luongo is identical to the deal they were offered last year but ownership said absolutely no to a salary hold back. Was also the reason the Leaf deal fell through. Water boy was adamant that they would not retain salary. MG tried to get this deal done so he could keep CS.

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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:30 pm 
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If resentment toward a former player agent turned GM was an actual thing, Pierre Lacroix would never have been able to pull off any of his megadeals.

The fact that Kesler wasn't moved at the deadline has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of resentment towards Gillis or any failure by Gillis to consummate a deal, it's that the right deal never surfaced. Both Anaheim and Pittsburgh appear to be the top teams in on the Kesler sweepstakes, and neither offered up the package Gillis wanted of a pick, player, and prospect. Reportedly Anaheim offered up a whole bunch of picks, and either Etem or Rakell, but wouldn't trade anyone off the roster. Pittsburgh offered up the pick, the player (Sutter), but reportedly the Canucks wanted Derrick Pouliot, to which Shero said no. Do you honestly think Gillis should've bitten the bullet and taken either of those deals? I don't blame him for standing pat.

At the deadline, there were only two serious suitors in on Kesler. This offseason, I guarantee you Philly will be in the mix, and knowing how they always go balls-out when a player they covet is available, that's a good thing. Maybe even a bidding war between the two Pennsylvania teams.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:00 pm 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'd be floored if Gillis has actually made fewer trades than anyone else. The Canucks have been perfectly active each year he's been around. I don't buy, and have never bought, the idea that he's somehow "blackballed". All GMs have a prior history in hockey.


I'm not quite sure what "perfectly active" means, how would you qualify perfection in activity? (seems like you've been reading to much of my writing and absorbing bad lessons :P) Anyways it's not so much his activity level (quantity) that concerns me as that the significant trades of his tenure are all Florida (Booth, Ballard, Lui) Unless I'm forgetting someone. I get that GM's seem to have favorites but it's perplexing there are not a few that come to my mind with other GM's.

Jyrki21 wrote:
I think asking for a roster player was a little bit pointless if other offerings were good -- you don't be a seller at the deadline because you're trying to stay competitive for the season in question (Bosc explored this logic earlier -- why would the Wings or Flyers, say, trade a currently competent center for a slightly better but older one? It's not really worth their while).


Oh fully agree, the rumours about Nyquist and Coutuier were non-starters. Those players are just too far along and too certain to be moved. Especially for their respective teams as they are not in the running for SC this year (different story for teams that are close, the window of opportunity is only open so long, you risk more to capitalize on that opportunity). On the other hand a 3rd line center like Sutter, a grade A prospect and a pick are not unreasonable imo. Sutter doesn't have much upside and even grade A prospects blowup and well picks are a crap shoot especially in the 25-30 range.

Jyrki21 wrote:
I don't know if Kesler's value will be any higher in the offseason -- the market conditions at the deadline are pretty optimal for a seller -- but apart from the roster player issue, I don't think it's Gillis' "fault" that Kesler couldn't be moved when there wasn't actually that much on the table. We don't even know that Kesler would have allowed a trade to Anaheim.


Anaheim, Chicago, Penn state times 2, Detroit and I forget the 6th Botchford came up with were the options Kesler gave. So coming back full circle, why was there so little interest in Kesler? Teams like Pittsburg and Anaheim that are so close and have cap space I would expect to pony up more than a 3rd line center and a couple picks. I may be grossly over estimating Kesler's value or is there something to the conspiracy rumours, or is there some other reason else I'm completely overlooking why Gillis has trouble getting value for trades. I mean I hate conspiracy theories, I'd like to think reason wins out but the reality is biases do happen (Ted Nolan) and people get blackballed. Not saying you're wrong to Jyrki but until there is another plausible reason to explain why there are so few significant trades to places other than Florida and why the offerings for Kesler were so low I'll have to say the blackballed option still gets consideration, at least from me anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
If resentment toward a former player agent turned GM was an actual thing, Pierre Lacroix would never have been able to pull off any of his megadeals.


Correlation does not equal causation. Theoren Fleury imo should be in the HHoF. Darryl Sutter spoke on the issue in Theo's documentary and basically said it was an old boys club and that Theo had shit on too many people to many times and it would be a long wait until he got in. Basically there is an 'old boys' club and Theo is definitely on the outs.

What you and I can't possibly know is how did Lacroix comport himself in his dealings as an agent. Was he honest and amicable or an arrogant, lying, obnoxious pos who pissed a lot of people off? We don't know how the two behaved and unless we know that they were relatively equal in their behavior we can't assume that the two are necessarily equally respected by their GM brethren. Not saying your assumption about agents is wrong just saying one thing (Lacroix) most certainly does not prove the other (Gillis) wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:33 pm 
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I can't imagine Pierre Lacroix came off all that charming to his rivals. He pissed off plenty of people in his own organization. He was just determined and clever, that's all.

Again, you have to look at the situation. Look how many teams were up against the cap. Look how many teams had to use LTIR to ice a complete roster. Despite the fact that this was a crrrrrrazy deadline and the cap is going up next year and sure to skyrocket in years to come, it just wasn't an ideal market to move a player like Kesler.

The only thing Gillis is guilty of in terms of lying is to the fans. It was indeed insulting to see him stand there and claim the Heritage Classic fiasco had no impact on the proceedings, when everyone else clearly admitted it had. He was quite angry and defensive during that post-deadline presser. Definitely looked like a guy who knew he was in big trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
I can't imagine Pierre Lacroix came off all that charming to his rivals. He pissed off plenty of people in his own organization. He was just determined and clever, that's all.

Again, you have to look at the situation. Look how many teams were up against the cap. Look how many teams had to use LTIR to ice a complete roster. Despite the fact that this was a crrrrrrazy deadline and the cap is going up next year and sure to skyrocket in years to come, it just wasn't an ideal market to move a player like Kesler.

The only thing Gillis is guilty of in terms of lying is to the fans. It was indeed insulting to see him stand there and claim the Heritage Classic fiasco had no impact on the proceedings, when everyone else clearly admitted it had. He was quite angry and defensive during that post-deadline presser. Definitely looked like a guy who knew he was in big trouble.


1. Taken in isolation I would never suggest 'blackballed' based just on this trade deadline. It's his whole history that piques my interest. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to say this is the most likely explanation, I really doubt it is. Just saying I can't find a reason to dismiss it and it would explain some things that I don't presently understand.
2. Canuck's definitely had the room to keep or take back salary for the right deal. They have both the wealth and cap space. So that definitely was not an impediment to a deal.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
1. Taken in isolation I would never suggest 'blackballed' based just on this trade deadline. It's his whole history that piques my interest. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to say this is the most likely explanation, I really doubt it is. Just saying I can't find a reason to dismiss it and it would explain some things that I don't presently understand.
2. Canuck's definitely had the room to keep or take back salary for the right deal. They have both the wealth and cap space. So that definitely was not an impediment to a deal.


But what if they could get maximum value and not have to eat salary at all? They're already subsidizing one contract, they don't have to do two. And remember, a team can only split three contracts, which means they can only do two from now until Luongo's deal expires.

Put it this way, I'm almost certain that if Philly gets involved, they'll package up a deal centered around Sean Couturier. That'll beat most anything offered up by other teams amongst the clubs vying for Kesler's services.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
1. Taken in isolation I would never suggest 'blackballed' based just on this trade deadline. It's his whole history that piques my interest. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to say this is the most likely explanation, I really doubt it is. Just saying I can't find a reason to dismiss it and it would explain some things that I don't presently understand.
2. Canuck's definitely had the room to keep or take back salary for the right deal. They have both the wealth and cap space. So that definitely was not an impediment to a deal.


But what if they could get maximum value and not have to eat salary at all? They're already subsidizing one contract, they don't have to do two. And remember, a team can only split three contracts, which means they can only do two from now until Luongo's deal expires.

Put it this way, I'm almost certain that if Philly gets involved, they'll package up a deal centered around Sean Couturier. That'll beat most anything offered up by other teams amongst the clubs vying for Kesler's services.


Keep hearing you speak of summer, hell I expect Kesler to be injured before the season is out nixing any trade. I'll be pleasantly surprised if not.

Regarding contracts whats the point of having flexibility if you don't use it? And he only has 1.5 years, not a big deal to add a second. Couturier is only 21 and almost as good as Kesler already, Philly wont have to offer anything else, Nucks may have to actually sweeten the deal. I'd say there is no way he is moving to the Flyers but then I remember that Milburys marginally less inbred cousin is GM in Philadelphia and well I guess it could happen but I'm doubtful. I expect Kesler will still be with the team come opening day 2014. And that is not a bad thing, he is the heart of the team but its not the direction I expect will turn this team around.

Come back Tuzer, give me a reason for optimism again. :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Incidentally, I'd like to know what can be done about Jacob Markstrom. For a while now he was touted as THE best goalie prospect in the league, and now he's already being looked at like a salvage project. What happened?


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
Incidentally, I'd like to know what can be done about Jacob Markstrom. For a while now he was touted as THE best goalie prospect in the league, and now he's already being looked at like a salvage project. What happened?


Apparently really inconsistent. However he is the big body that Mellanson seems to love. At 24 he could be a bust or could turn it around with the right goalie coach.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
Incidentally, I'd like to know what can be done about Jacob Markstrom. For a while now he was touted as THE best goalie prospect in the league, and now he's already being looked at like a salvage project. What happened?


Given how hard and often he hits the ice, I'm surprised that he's able to get up in the mornining let alone get to the rink and play hockey.

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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:56 am 
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Speaking of the roster, what the hell happened to the Green Men?


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:10 pm 
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I was not happy with playing Corrado over Ballard at the time, especially since it was knocking years off his UFA term. Did not realize it also knocked two years off his waiver exemption status. In retrospect its an even dumber decision now.

Quote:
FRANK CORRADO

Not Waiver Exempt

Frank Corrado is a tricky situation as he played in 3 regular and 4 play-off games in the NHL as an 18-year old. That automatically put him over the threshold in the 2012-2013 lockout season and burned away two years of waiver-exemption bringing him down to 3 seasons ending in 2014-2015. He is under his game limit, with 28 + 4 NHL games.

Another interesting note, while the Canucks were willing to burn a year of his ELC, they also burned two years of waiver-exemption for 1 game over the threshold and a first-round playoff loss. The fall out of that decision will be seen this Fall.


I guess they can always send Sbisa down, I suspect he's safe from being claimed, unfortunately. The alternative will be sending down and losing either Clandening or Corrado and they will get grabbed up.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:22 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
I was not happy with playing Corrado over Ballard at the time, especially since it was knocking years off his UFA term. Did not realize it also knocked two years off his waiver exemption status. In retrospect its an even dumber decision now.

Quote:
FRANK CORRADO

Not Waiver Exempt

Frank Corrado is a tricky situation as he played in 3 regular and 4 play-off games in the NHL as an 18-year old. That automatically put him over the threshold in the 2012-2013 lockout season and burned away two years of waiver-exemption bringing him down to 3 seasons ending in 2014-2015. He is under his game limit, with 28 + 4 NHL games.

Another interesting note, while the Canucks were willing to burn a year of his ELC, they also burned two years of waiver-exemption for 1 game over the threshold and a first-round playoff loss. The fall out of that decision will be seen this Fall.


I guess they can always send Sbisa down, I suspect he's safe from being claimed, unfortunately. The alternative will be sending down and losing either Clandening or Corrado and they will get grabbed up.

Some of these people are going to pass waivers because most teams have a guy in a similar spot.

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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:18 pm 
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Interesting fancy stats observation:

Andrew Berkshire on Twitter wrote:
Canucks people, do you notice that Willie lets his D forecheck more than other teams? Found a ridiculous outlier from last season.


Thomas Drance on Twitter wrote:
@AndrewBerkshire sounds right, though they were actually *less* aggressive than the year b4 under Torts, to my eyes.


Andrew Berkshire on Twitter wrote:
@ThomasDrance Almost every D has double or more loose puck recoveries in the OZ than NHL average. Haven't seen anything like it before.


Thomas Drance on Twitter wrote:
@AndrewBerkshire v. weird. My guess: systems-wise they knew their team speed was an issue, D pinched aggressively to buy time.


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:42 pm 
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or maybe the forwards were so damn slow the D got their first? :D


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 Post subject: Re: What Now? The Roster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:22 am 
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Fogghorn wrote:
or maybe the forwards were so damn slow the D got their first? :D

Probably not far from the truth.


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