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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:43 pm 
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saskhab wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:

Have the AV's ever made a once in a generation, organizational crippling trade you've had to live through? Off hand I can't think of one but I'm not that close to your team?

Ryan O'Rielly for Yannick Weber and Ryan White was a pretty bad one.


Did the av's do this?

...

would be nice.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:29 am 
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Most Canucks fans hate Luongo at this point, but I'd much rather he have been the Isles goalie for the last 10+ years than DPahole. That trade was horrible. The fact that Parrish & Kvasha have both been out of the NHL for a good few years really points it out. Jokinen & Luongo are aging, but both had better than average careers. Certainly better than the few years the Isles got from Parrish & Kvasha.

And don't forget Milbury chose DPahole in front of Gaborik & Heatley. And they chose Raffi Torres 5th & pretty much threw him in with Isbister to get Janne Niinimaa. Isbister & Niinimaa are both long gone, and well, maybe all the suspension rest has added longevity to Torres' career. But he's the one still around. (I know Niinimaa was much older, but that's half the point)

The Milbury Error (sic) is still affecting the Isles, and the rest of the league. The DPahole contract is all Wang though, as Av points out. He's the one who has orchestrated two of the dumbest deals in NHL history- Yashin & DiPietro. 25 combined years of mediocrity & absence. Kind of longer in Yashin's case already, since his buyout years were doubled to reduce the price. The guy offered to come back & play for essentially free, since they were already paying him, and they wouldn't even take him. That's how bad that contract was. That was Milbury with Wang pulling the strings.

I could go on all day. But I won't, because this is further ruining an already crappy Monday.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Chris18 wrote:
Most Canucks fans hate Luongo at this point, but I'd much rather he have been the Isles goalie for the last 10+ years than DPahole. That trade was horrible. The fact that Parrish & Kvasha have both been out of the NHL for a good few years really points it out. Jokinen & Luongo are aging, but both had better than average careers. Certainly better than the few years the Isles got from Parrish & Kvasha.

And don't forget Milbury chose DPahole in front of Gaborik & Heatley. And they chose Raffi Torres 5th & pretty much threw him in with Isbister to get Janne Niinimaa. Isbister & Niinimaa are both long gone, and well, maybe all the suspension rest has added longevity to Torres' career. But he's the one still around. (I know Niinimaa was much older, but that's half the point)

The Milbury Error (sic) is still affecting the Isles, and the rest of the league. The DPahole contract is all Wang though, as Av points out. He's the one who has orchestrated two of the dumbest deals in NHL history- Yashin & DiPietro. 25 combined years of mediocrity & absence. Kind of longer in Yashin's case already, since his buyout years were doubled to reduce the price. The guy offered to come back & play for essentially free, since they were already paying him, and they wouldn't even take him. That's how bad that contract was. That was Milbury with Wang pulling the strings.

I could go on all day. But I won't, because this is further ruining an already crappy Monday.


Actually most Canucks respect Lou and consider him the best goalie the franchise has ever had. It's just that Schneider is the future with age on his side.

I realize the 2 contracts are on Wang but the decision to pursue DP and Yashin were all Milbury. And he had to give up far too much to get them. The contracts are bad but if Milbury kept Luo and Wang had given that contract to Luongo instead, well you'd have the same time frame at less money as he has now. So that's where I disagree with AV, it's Milbury to this day that was the much, much bigger problem, not Wang's contracts size. Which are ugly but you still could have been competitive with them.

Too me the Milbury years look like a man with a grudge against the Isles was allowed to run it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Have the AV's ever made a once in a generation, organizational crippling trade you've had to live through? Off hand I can't think of one but I'm not that close to your team?


Yes. Rene Corbet, Wade Belak, and a young prospect by the name of Robyn Regehr for five minutes of Theo Fleury (and Chris Dingman, who wasn't a bad 4th liner, but still). What REALLY sucks is that Lacroix gave Al Coates his choice of prospect--either Regehr or Martin Skoula. You know the story--Regehr turned into one of the premier stay-at-home defensemen of the league, while Skoula more or less went bust.

Regehr would've been the stabilizing presence on the Avs blueline they so sorely needed when Foote and Blake left...and it's pure speculation, but it's possible that the team may have had just one more Cup in them before it all went to hell. Without a doubt Lacroix's biggest mistake as GM, even worse than naming Tony Granato head coach.

If we trade O'Reilly to the Flames there will be pitchforks and torches coming for Sherman and his boss at the Pepsi Center. Don't know WHY the Avs keep trading with the Flames...they've won pretty much every trade they've made with us.

Anyway, sorry to rant about the Avs in an Isles thread. Carry on.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Well Fog, just because they had DP didn't mean they had to sign him to a 1.5 decade contract. It's just idiotic. Wang thought you could run a team like any other business, not understanding hockey players have short career-expectancies. And the DP contract was particularly horrendous because they were already seeing that the Yashin 1 decade contract wasn't working out well. When you can talk about contracts in terms of decades, there's a problem.

I wish Mad Mike went straight to announcing, instead of fucking the Isles for 10 years or more. Imagine the Isles having had Spezza, Jokinen, Torres, Chara, and Luongo? They'd have been a lot better than they were! And those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Moving out of the Isles thread

Av-merican wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
Have the AV's ever made a once in a generation, organizational crippling trade you've had to live through? Off hand I can't think of one but I'm not that close to your team?


Yes. Rene Corbet, Wade Belak, and a young prospect by the name of Robyn Regehr for five minutes of Theo Fleury (and Chris Dingman, who wasn't a bad 4th liner, but still). What REALLY sucks is that Lacroix gave Al Coates his choice of prospect--either Regehr or Martin Skoula. You know the story--Regehr turned into one of the premier stay-at-home defensemen of the league, while Skoula more or less went bust.

Regehr would've been the stabilizing presence on the Avs blueline they so sorely needed when Foote and Blake left...and it's pure speculation, but it's possible that the team may have had just one more Cup in them before it all went to hell. Without a doubt Lacroix's biggest mistake as GM, even worse than naming Tony Granato head coach.

If we trade O'Reilly to the Flames there will be pitchforks and torches coming for Sherman and his boss at the Pepsi Center. Don't know WHY the Avs keep trading with the Flames...they've won pretty much every trade they've made with us.

Anyway, sorry to rant about the Avs in an Isles thread. Carry on.


Regehr is good but not a HoF player who's loss I would consider to be a tectonic shift for a franchise's future. Nothing like Roy/Keane was for Montreal; Neely/Wesley for Vancouver; Luongo/Chara/Spezza for the Isles. These trades haunt in a way that most don't in that every fan feels they could have done better. Hell there is still a record for the Neely trade showing how the draft pick (Glen Wesley) was turned into futures that eventually became Horton and Lucic and the implication it cost us the cup. The worst trades completely alter teams for a generation and I don't think Regehr is in that league.

Unless as a fan you've lived through it and suffered for it I don't think you can really get it, and I don't think anyone has had to put up with as much pain as Isles fans and I just see having DP gone, moving to Brooklyn and removing all memory of the aughts will be just what they need. And most of this is on Milbury. Wang was dumb but they could have put competitive teams on the ice despite him. It was mad Mike's trading that doomed them to hemorrhage out until catatonic.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:28 pm 
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The Avs still won a Cup a couple years after the Fleury for Regehr trade. That's hardly franchise crippling. I guess you could say it was the first of many bad trades that culminated in mediocrity, though.

The Habs trigger trade into mediocrity was Chris Chelios for Denis Savard. They thought Chelios was over the hill. In 1990. Talk about one of your worst all-time evaluations. He's on your team, a #1D and top 5 in the NHL, and you determine he's past his prime and he goes on to play for another like 18 years, at least a dozen of which he's still considered elite. Then you trade all your leadership (not to mention skill) positions for jack shit (Carbonneau) or as part of package deals (DESJARDINS AND JOHN LECLAIR FOR MARK RECCHI!!!!!, MATHEIU SCHNEIDER AND KIRK MULLER FOR PIERRE TURGEON AND VLADY MALAKHOV). Honestly, the drop from Roy to Thibault wouldn't have been as cataclysmic if he were playing in front of a top 4 D of Chelios, Desjardins, Schneider and Brisebois like he damn well should've been. Imagine what the story of Brisebois' career would've been if he were behind those 3 on the depth chart?

It's only at that point that the Habs become a panic franchise that thinks Roy is the problem. The problem had already occurred in the previous 5 years. Every one of those trades was an utter loss, with the best results of it literally being one step forward (a Recchi, Turgeon) and two steps backward (two good assets to get them, one of which was at least as good as the one they got, if not better).

And then you tack on Mike Keane in the Roy trade! And in the years later you have to trade guys like Recchi and Damphousse anyways!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Sask overall I agree with the point you make but not sure Chelios for Savard is quite comparable. People thought that was a pretty fair trade at the time. Savard was a star and as a plus seen as helping to make up for the decision to draft Wickenheiser instead of Savard. The whole anglo-french thing was still a big issue at the time.

That's how I recall it but it was long ago and my memory muddles so I could be be completely wrong. The other trades I mentioned I think there was a pretty clear consensus at the time they they were all very dumb decisions. In retrospect Chelios certainly was but I think opinion was pretty fairly split at the time.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:23 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Sask overall I agree with the point you make but not sure Chelios for Savard is quite comparable. People thought that was a pretty fair trade at the time. Savard was a star and as a plus seen as helping to make up for the decision to draft Wickenheiser instead of Savard. The whole anglo-french thing was still a big issue at the time.

That's how I recall it but it was long ago and my memory muddles so I could be be completely wrong. The other trades I mentioned I think there was a pretty clear consensus at the time they they were all very dumb decisions. In retrospect Chelios certainly was but I think opinion was pretty fairly split at the time.


From the way it's been presented to me, Savard was more or less past his prime and this was an attempt to try and make up for the supreme mistake they made when they opted for Wickenheiser over Savard at the draft.

Yeah, unfortunately Milbury's era of fail will rank tops probably no matter what. When you lose players like Chara, Redden, Brewer, and Luongo for middling-to-awful returns, there's just no way to match that.

It's funny...if DiPietro had actually stayed healthy and even improved as a franchise goaltender, I wonder where that would leave the Isles today?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Sask overall I agree with the point you make but not sure Chelios for Savard is quite comparable. People thought that was a pretty fair trade at the time. Savard was a star and as a plus seen as helping to make up for the decision to draft Wickenheiser instead of Savard. The whole anglo-french thing was still a big issue at the time.

That's how I recall it but it was long ago and my memory muddles so I could be be completely wrong. The other trades I mentioned I think there was a pretty clear consensus at the time they they were all very dumb decisions. In retrospect Chelios certainly was but I think opinion was pretty fairly split at the time.

Chelios was also co-captain with Carbo. This solved that issue and gave it fully to the Franco. Chelios was also perceived as a party animal type, which is the top reason that Montreal has traded people away for nothing for the past 25 years.

I think 'how it was recalled' was generally favourable to Montreal because Montreal in 1990 was perceived a lot differently as an organization than they were post-Roy deal. The rot started here, but no one called them on it at the time.

The Habs traded away a HHOF defensemen at the start of the 1980s (Langway) but it really didn't hurt the team a ton. The Habs' streak of making major roster moves that negatively impacted the team started at Chelios and didn't end until the team essentially is where it is currently, an unspectacular franchise that is neither good or terrible.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
Sask overall I agree with the point you make but not sure Chelios for Savard is quite comparable. People thought that was a pretty fair trade at the time. Savard was a star and as a plus seen as helping to make up for the decision to draft Wickenheiser instead of Savard. The whole anglo-french thing was still a big issue at the time.

That's how I recall it but it was long ago and my memory muddles so I could be be completely wrong. The other trades I mentioned I think there was a pretty clear consensus at the time they they were all very dumb decisions. In retrospect Chelios certainly was but I think opinion was pretty fairly split at the time.


From the way it's been presented to me, Savard was more or less past his prime and this was an attempt to try and make up for the supreme mistake they made when they opted for Wickenheiser over Savard at the draft.

Yeah, unfortunately Milbury's era of fail will rank tops probably no matter what. When you lose players like Chara, Redden, Brewer, and Luongo for middling-to-awful returns, there's just no way to match that.

It's funny...if DiPietro had actually stayed healthy and even improved as a franchise goaltender, I wonder where that would leave the Isles today?


I think the most optimistic projection would have been the career Luongo has had. Bobby loved 50 shots a night in Florida, stays healthy and I think 3rd best GAA for goalies with more than 200 wins. Which is the problem, they gave up on Luongo who was already proving to be the goalie they hoped DiPetro might become. :doh: :P

Instead they could have had Heatly or Gaborik as the safe choices instead of DiPetro.


Enjoying this Chris? Slowly pulling off what if bandaids, then repeating in an endless groundhog day loop.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Av-merican wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
Sask overall I agree with the point you make but not sure Chelios for Savard is quite comparable. People thought that was a pretty fair trade at the time. Savard was a star and as a plus seen as helping to make up for the decision to draft Wickenheiser instead of Savard. The whole anglo-french thing was still a big issue at the time.

That's how I recall it but it was long ago and my memory muddles so I could be be completely wrong. The other trades I mentioned I think there was a pretty clear consensus at the time they they were all very dumb decisions. In retrospect Chelios certainly was but I think opinion was pretty fairly split at the time.


From the way it's been presented to me, Savard was more or less past his prime and this was an attempt to try and make up for the supreme mistake they made when they opted for Wickenheiser over Savard at the draft.

Yeah, unfortunately Milbury's era of fail will rank tops probably no matter what. When you lose players like Chara, Redden, Brewer, and Luongo for middling-to-awful returns, there's just no way to match that.

It's funny...if DiPietro had actually stayed healthy and even improved as a franchise goaltender, I wonder where that would leave the Isles today?


I think the most optimistic projection would have been the career Luongo has had. Bobby loved 50 shots a night in Florida, stays healthy and I think 3rd best GAA for goalies with more than 200 wins. Which is the problem, they gave up on Luongo who was already proving to be the goalie they hoped DiPetro might become. :doh: :P

Instead they could have had Heatly or Gaborik as the safe choices instead of DiPetro.


Enjoying this Chris? Slowly pulling off what if bandaids, then repeating in an endless groundhog day loop.

And Dan Snyder might still be alive, but someone like Steve Webb wouldn't be.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:43 am 
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Well Sask, Kirk Muller hardly worked out as a steal for the Isles. I still hate that fuck.

And if you're implying that Dan Snyder being alive instead of Steve Webb, I take serious exception to it, and so would a lot of people he's helped in recent years. The charity bike ride with he-who-shall-not-be-named-by-Isles-PR-Dept, coaching a youth team to a national title (with same bike ride partner), etc. He may not have been a great NHL player (although I still think he was great at his role as instigator), but he's certainly not someone who the world would be better without. Not sure if that's at all what you meant, but I still have a liking for Webb, and it only became more after his retirement, which was another fuck up by Milbury! Webb wanted a 2 year deal at league minimum, and Milbury would only give him 1. Webb was not signed until hours before training camp opened (caving and taking the 1 year deal). He tried to lug all his equipment & personal stuff to the bus in one go & hurt his back, never to be the same again. They let him go at the end of the year (he missed time with back spasms), signed with Pitt, only to have the Isles TRADE to get him back for the playoff run. He still had chronic back issues & wasn't the same as he was when he helped make that '02 series vs Toronto so memorable with constant hits.

And yes Fog, this thread is depressing me, big time. :chris18:

But I still have some hope. Snow seems to be sticking to his long term plan of not trading youth away for a feeble attempt to win now, as Milbury always did (other than when he traded away his proven youth for totally UNproven youth). Between Tavares, Moulson, Grabner, Strome, & Nino I have some hope. Poulin & Nilsson too. Guys on D like Hamonic, MacDonald & even Hickey are looking good too. As long as they can convince the D to stick around they'll be contenders in a year or two (I've been saying that for 20 years now. Eventually it'll be true, right? Just ask Cubs fans!)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:55 am 
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He's not implying the world would be better off without Steve Webb, just saying he was a well-liked role player much like Snyder was, and it might've been him in the car on that fateful night instead of Snyder had Heatley ended up an Islander.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
He's not implying the world would be better off without Steve Webb, just saying he was a well-liked role player much like Snyder was, and it might've been him in the car on that fateful night instead of Snyder had Heatley ended up an Islander.


Okay. I don't remember Snyder's play/role on the team... Understood. My apologies Mr. Sask. I'm overtired today.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Yeah, Snyder was similarly well loved. I'm just saying that no matter what, Heatley was bound to kill someone because he's a fucking tool. Milbury had a lot of control over the future, but not that much control.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:49 am 
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saskhab wrote:
Yeah, Snyder was similarly well loved. I'm just saying that no matter what, Heatley was bound to kill someone because he's a fucking tool. Milbury had a lot of control over the future, but not that much control.


Point taken. Ignore my rant.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:59 pm 
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So Anders Nilsson is hurt with some mystery injury. Hasn't played all February. Isles called up Poulin & called Reiter, an ECHL kid, up to Bridgeport. Sounds likely that I'll see Ricky Red Light on Sunday. :chris18: :chairshot:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Now I'm reading DiPietro contemplated suicide. That's really disheartening.

I wish to hell player salaries and contracts were kept secret again. I just can't stand how many people keep dissing Paul Stastny because he's supposedly not living up to his megadeal. So effin' what!? The team shouldn't have signed him to that in the first place. And the Isles were dumb to sign any single player to a lifetime contract like that. As Patrick Burke just recently tweeted, the fan-based notion that a guy is rich and therefore shouldn't be unhappy is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Av-merican wrote:
Now I'm reading DiPietro contemplated suicide. That's really disheartening.

I wish to hell player salaries and contracts were kept secret again. I just can't stand how many people keep dissing Paul Stastny because he's supposedly not living up to his megadeal. So effin' what!? The team shouldn't have signed him to that in the first place. And the Isles were dumb to sign any single player to a lifetime contract like that. As Patrick Burke just recently tweeted, the fan-based notion that a guy is rich and therefore shouldn't be unhappy is ridiculous.


Wow. Where'd you read that?

Did it have more to do with his contract or his injuries?

Edit- http://islanderspointblank.com/news/dipietro-on-waivers-they-ripped-my-heart-out-stabbed-it-set-it-on-fire/

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