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 Post subject: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:26 pm 
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http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/201 ... ision.html

Holy shit...and you thought the NHL was geographically challenged.

Toronto, Lake Erie (Cleveland), Hamilton, Rochester, and the new Utica Comets comprise the North Division in the WESTERN Conference, despite the fact that Binghamton resides in the same state as Utica and Rochester and yet remains in the Eastern Conference.

The best one is the West Division in the Western Conference, which features the Checkers from Charlotte, North Carolina. Yeah, have fun on the bus trips to Abbotsford, guys.


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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:14 am 
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I'll never understand west coast teams having their AHL teams in the east.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:27 am 
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Chris18 wrote:
I'll never understand west coast teams having their AHL teams in the east.


True--the Manchester/Los Angeles affiliation is especially mind-boggling, since it's lasted so long and the Kings used to struggle with travel costs. The string of callups during the injury-plagued Andy Murray years must've put the team in serious financial straits.


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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:19 am 
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I assume you know they don't actually take the bus when they go to Abbotsford.

And the reason why Western teams have affiliates in the east is because that's where everyone else is. Being the only or one of 2/3 Western teams in a league largely based around upstate NY is just a recipe for your prospects travelling all the time. It's much easier, I'd think, for your sporadic callups to fly a little longer (keeping in mind that if they're joining you on the road, your chances of being somewhere east of the Pacific Time Zone are very good in the NHL) than for the whole team to travel a lot for every regular season game.

I will never understand why hockey doesn't have several, geographically constrained minor leagues like baseball does, though.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:31 am 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
I will never understand why hockey doesn't have several, geographically constrained minor leagues like baseball does, though.


That would make the most sense to me.

But another reason I don't like the AHL being mostly in the east is that AHL games are far more affordable for a family to attend than NHL games. If they're trying to grow hockey fanbases in the "non-traditional" markets, start from the ground up, not the roof downward. It's just common sense. A family that doesn't watch or play hockey isn't going to suddenly decide to go to an NHL game, dropping a minimum of $30/ticket for the upper bowl in a 16k-20k seat arena. If they had a minor league team & could pay like $10/ticket for upper bowl tickets in a 6-10k arena, they'd be far more likely to take a chance on that.

I think the AHL & other minor leagues should also try more neutral site games to potentially enlarge the market. At least in pre-season games. The Sound Tigers used to play a pre-season game in our local arena, and the Isles would play in Bridgeport. It was great- we'd go to both & the arenas were packed. Now they don't do either and we don't bother with pre-season games. Some bean counter decided our $ wasn't worth it I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:32 am 
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There has been talk of an AHL West. But it's still not happening. That's when Abbotsford would make sense. Take the Texas teams (including a freaking Houston franchise), OKC, Abbotsford and add the Western teams in the ECHL (4 Cali teams I think, Idaho, Alaska, Vegas, Colorado, SLC) and make that an A equal.

I don't understand why there has to be 30 AHL teams because there are 30 NHL teams, either. Teams like Chicago want to run themselves independently? Fine, let them. Teams can send a couple of prospects there to help fill out their roster while they put a lot of their own money into signing AHL vets and have them be non-affiliated. It's not freaking rocket science. There can be a 15 team AHL West or whatever and still have most or all of the Eastern teams and have about 40 in total or whatever. The NHL can expand the 50 contract limit and allow teams to have both a primary and a secondary AHL affiliate. Vancouver can stash a few prospects in an Eastern franchise while having most of their own guys close to home, in Abbotsford or Anchorage or Boise or whatever. Montreal can run a Laval franchise as rumoured is in their plans as well as the Hamilton one, or Ottawa can takeover Hamilton while Montreal puts a few extra guys in the US somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:37 am 
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I forget the teams involved, but I know there was 1 AHL team that was affiliated with 2 NHL teams, while there was another AHL team not affiliated with any NHL team. So there's precedent. I don't know how that unaffiliated team did in the standings. I'd imagine they'd be short of top prospects and not as good. But with a wily GM, they could be competitive at least.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:41 am 
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Chris18 wrote:
I forget the teams involved, but I know there was 1 AHL team that was affiliated with 2 NHL teams, while there was another AHL team not affiliated with any NHL team. So there's precedent. I don't know how that unaffiliated team did in the standings. I'd imagine they'd be short of top prospects and not as good. But with a wily GM, they could be competitive at least.

Well, there used to be quite a number of unaffiliated teams because there was both the AHL and IHL, whose total numbers exceeded the mid-20s-teamed NHL at the time. (There were fewer NHL affiliates in the 'I' than the 'A' for the most part). And yes, quite recently I remember a split farm team -- was it Dallas and Anaheim?

But yeah, apart from specific prospects you would like to see play together, I see no need for all players under contract to be on the same minor league team. Frankly, I'd rather the best ones all be the stars of different teams to maximize their playing time and opportunities.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:54 am 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
Chris18 wrote:
I forget the teams involved, but I know there was 1 AHL team that was affiliated with 2 NHL teams, while there was another AHL team not affiliated with any NHL team. So there's precedent. I don't know how that unaffiliated team did in the standings. I'd imagine they'd be short of top prospects and not as good. But with a wily GM, they could be competitive at least.

Well, there used to be quite a number of unaffiliated teams because there was both the AHL and IHL, whose total numbers exceeded the mid-20s-teamed NHL at the time. (There were fewer NHL affiliates in the 'I' than the 'A' for the most part). And yes, quite recently I remember a split farm team -- was it Dallas and Anaheim?

But yeah, apart from specific prospects you would like to see play together, I see no need for all players under contract to be on the same minor league team. Frankly, I'd rather the best ones all be the stars of different teams to maximize their playing time and opportunities.


I think Edmonton might have had a co-affiliation with someone else.

Some teams like to have their players under the same development program. That's one reason to keep them on the same squad.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:26 pm 
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The CHL (where the Denver Cutthroats and Allen Americans operate) is essentially an ECHL-equivalent operating in the central United States, so there's at least some precedent for a regional minor league.

I think the Colorado Eagles could be an AHL affiliate. It'd be cool if, somehow, there could be regional leagues whose winners then meet for a championship tournament a la the Memorial Cup. Given the general instability of the AHL I'm not sure that could happen though.

Just came across my Rocky Mountain Rage jersey a few weeks back. Too bad those guys didn't pan out.


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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
But yeah, apart from specific prospects you would like to see play together, I see no need for all players under contract to be on the same minor league team. Frankly, I'd rather the best ones all be the stars of different teams to maximize their playing time and opportunities.


Teams would want their draft picks & prospects to be under their own roof. What if your 2nd round pick was on an unaffiliated team & started to take a step back in his development? You might blame the team's coach, even accuse them of tampering with a prospect. These guys are worth too much potential money to have them scattered about on unaffiliated teams or teams affiliated with another NHL team. Would there be a rule like you'd keep players drafted in the first 3 rounds on your affiliated AHL team? If not, there's a ton of room for tampering, or at least the accusations of tampering.

For example, what if Nino Niederreiter had been on an unaffiliated AHL team, or team affiliated with another NHL team this year? His drop in 2nd half production & trade demand and eventual trade would be fodder for all sorts of tampering speculation. Did his AHL coach tell him the Isles aren't ever going to call him up? Or that he'd be a much better fit on a team with another style system? It would cause mayhem, which in a way, may be good: No such thing as bad press, right? But I just don't see how it would work. Teams would be trying to get their people & coaches in everywhere, to keep an eye on their prospects. I say keep their affiliates closer to home, and have some unaffiliated teams. Maybe give the teams with no affiliation a higher salary cap, so they could afford more AHL vets, or NHL castoffs. The NHL teams are going to have the bluechip prospects. Or just have a stronger affiliation between the AHL & ECHL and/or the CHL, so the non-NHL affiliated AHL teams could call up better CHL/ECHL players.

And no matter what, I still don't get the idea of having your AHL affliate 2500+ miles away.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:48 pm 
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Often when prospects are assigned to a secondary affiliate (i.e., someone else's primary affiliate), there often comes a guarantee of ice time. I remember Hamilton used to get prospects from Tampa Bay and Dallas for a few years before Montreal took it over full time. Back then, Dan Ellis was sent there by Dallas and the team had to give him as many starts as Yann Danis got (Montreal's AHL goalie at the time). Tampa had a few players that got decent icetime ahead of some of the Montreal prospects and some griped about it... I remember it was that supposed Finnish star way back when called Eero Somervouari who was supposed to be hot shit and flopped in the AHL.

Point is, there's usually some kind of stipulation about a guy having to get good icetime. The AHL team usually accepts because they're missing a player like that on their team anyways, or it's simply one less cost they have to worry about because the NHL team is paying for that.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Vancouver used to share the Bulldogs back 25 years ago but gave it up after a couple seasons. Montreal had control of the franchise, coaching and player time and felt their prospects were always getting shorted so gave up and moved on to Syracuse I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Ice time is one thing, but good coaching is entirely different. If a guy is temporarily playing with your team, from one of your real opponents, are you really going to put 100% into his development?

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
Vancouver used to share the Bulldogs back 25 years ago but gave it up after a couple seasons. Montreal had control of the franchise, coaching and player time and felt their prospects were always getting shorted so gave up and moved on to Syracuse I believe.

Are you talking about the Hamilton Canucks in the early '90s? They were only Vancouver's farm club. Montreal had Fredericton at that point.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
Vancouver used to share the Bulldogs back 25 years ago but gave it up after a couple seasons. Montreal had control of the franchise, coaching and player time and felt their prospects were always getting shorted so gave up and moved on to Syracuse I believe.

Are you talking about the Hamilton Canucks in the early '90s? They were only Vancouver's farm club. Montreal had Fredericton at that point.


They shared the Hamilton club with another team at one point and they eventually grew disenchanted with the situation due to lack of control. I can't recall who was though or the time but it would be late 80's or early 90's.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Fogghorn wrote:
They shared the Hamilton club with another team at one point and they eventually grew disenchanted with the situation due to lack of control. I can't recall who was though or the time but it would be late 80's or early 90's.

If this happened, it wasn't in Hamilton (the Hamilton Canucks' two years of existence that I mentioned being the only time the Canucks have been affiliated with that city). The Baby Canucks were definitely only a Vancouver affiliate.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Jyrki21 wrote:
Fogghorn wrote:
They shared the Hamilton club with another team at one point and they eventually grew disenchanted with the situation due to lack of control. I can't recall who was though or the time but it would be late 80's or early 90's.

If this happened, it wasn't in Hamilton (the Hamilton Canucks' two years of existence that I mentioned being the only time the Canucks have been affiliated with that city). The Baby Canucks were definitely only a Vancouver affiliate.


Maybe it was Milwakuee. Getting old and memories are getting merged together so may have location mixed up but the scenario of a shared farm team I'm certain about

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:52 pm 
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The Bulldogs were originally an Oilers affiliate. The Habs and Oilers split their affiliate in 2002-03 when the team went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup... It was a pretty stacked team that still rolled over the competition after their head coach and starting goaltender got called up mid-season by Montreal (Claude Julien, who was technically an Oilers employee, and Mathieu Garon). Ty Conklin simply stepped in as goalie along with former NHL backup Eric Fichaud. The Oilers provided Jarret Stoll, Raffi Torres, M-A Bergeron, Conklin as well as tweener guys like Jani Rita and Tony Salmelainen. Montreal provided Michael Ryder, Tomas Plekanec, Ron Hainsey, Mike Komisarek, Francois Beauchemin plus veterans like Bill Lindsay, Mariusz Czerkawski, Benoit Gratton and tweeners like Jason Ward (leading scorer, MVP) and Marcel Hossa. Pretty damn good AHL club (4 D that became long time NHL vets, 4 top 9 NHL forwards, 2 long time backup goalies, plus a couple longtime NHLers on their way out the door).

Anyways, yeah, the Oil had the Bulldogs for about 6 years exclusively as an Oilers affiliate (moved from Cape Breton in 1996), split with the Habs in 2002-03, and the Habs have run them ever since. The Oil then moved their affiliate to Toronto as the Roadrunners, then moved the Roadrunners to Edmonton for the lockout season to make money off the fans they were helping deny the better game to.

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 Post subject: Re: New AHL alignment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:29 am 
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saskhab wrote:
The Bulldogs were originally an Oilers affiliate. The Habs and Oilers split their affiliate in 2002-03 when the team went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup... It was a pretty stacked team that still rolled over the competition after their head coach and starting goaltender got called up mid-season by Montreal (Claude Julien, who was technically an Oilers employee, and Mathieu Garon). Ty Conklin simply stepped in as goalie along with former NHL backup Eric Fichaud. The Oilers provided Jarret Stoll, Raffi Torres, M-A Bergeron, Conklin as well as tweener guys like Jani Rita and Tony Salmelainen. Montreal provided Michael Ryder, Tomas Plekanec, Ron Hainsey, Mike Komisarek, Francois Beauchemin plus veterans like Bill Lindsay, Mariusz Czerkawski, Benoit Gratton and tweeners like Jason Ward (leading scorer, MVP) and Marcel Hossa. Pretty damn good AHL club (4 D that became long time NHL vets, 4 top 9 NHL forwards, 2 long time backup goalies, plus a couple longtime NHLers on their way out the door).

Anyways, yeah, the Oil had the Bulldogs for about 6 years exclusively as an Oilers affiliate (moved from Cape Breton in 1996), split with the Habs in 2002-03, and the Habs have run them ever since. The Oil then moved their affiliate to Toronto as the Roadrunners, then moved the Roadrunners to Edmonton for the lockout season to make money off the fans they were helping deny the better game to.


WHY HAVEN'T WE CALLED UP JASON WARD!

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