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 Post subject: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:39 am 
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So you don't have to be a goalie to answer these questions, feel free to weigh in because it's likely you still know a lot more about netminding than I do (only played the position once in a practice at the age of 6, was so bad my father and the coach decided before I did that I wasn't goalie material).

So my question is more about goalie coaching and technique. I noticed Fredrik Andersen the other night get caught waaaaay out of position on Patrik Laine's one-timer, and everywhere I'm reading that Babcock really likes his goalies to play aggressive and come out of the net. Conversely, I was reading about how Olaf Kolzig was telling Braden Holtby a couple years ago to play closer to the net so as to avoid situations like what happened to Andersen the other night--he felt today's NHL was more free-flowing and with less obstruction required goalies to emphasize lateral movement. In hindsight this appears to have been a bad idea as Holtby's numbers dipped noticeably under Olie the Goalie's tutelage, though he's obviously bounced back in a big way (y'know...Vezina) under Mitch Korn (and it appears he's back to coming out of the net). I think I read the decision to make Holtby play back was heavily influenced by Adam Oates as well. One last example: Henrik Lundqvist has been under the tutelage of Benoit Allaire for most of his career, and sticks pretty close to the net.

What determines if you're an aggressive or close-to-the-net type of goalie? I assume size plays a big factor. A big guy doesn't have to come out of the net as much as a smaller goaltender. I seem to remember Jose Theodore, a goalie who made up for not-great mechanics with sheer athleticism/agility, was a guy who played out of the net a lot...I could be wrong.

Anyway, it just seems strange to me that a head coach like Babcock or Oates would have such strong feelings on how they want their goaltenders to play. I get that systems play a part, but I can't imagine Babcock would have the Leafs playing a wildly different style if his goalie coach thought 6'4" Freddy Andersen should play closer to the net. Wouldn't determinations like that and other aspects of goalie coaching be made depending on the goalie's build and other factors (goaltending technique, etc.)? I imagine it might make things a bit complicated (telling Andersen to play one way and then telling the much-smaller Jhonas Enroth to play differently) but again, just seems strange that a head coach and his system would have that much of an influence on what the goalie did.

Thanks in advance for any insights you can provide.


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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:21 am 
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Part of it is skating and lateral movement. Guys who are out further out but are great skaters with good lateral movement are able to recover quicker and get back set into proper position. A guy who's not a great skater? Probably shouldn't be playing all that far out.

Howard and Mrazek were both aggressive in challenging shooters. When Ozzie worked with Jim Bedard to re-invent his game in his return to the Wings, he was aggressive too.

Lundqvist is just weird.

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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:43 am 
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Location: Too deep in crease.
the example you cited was a slap pass which can be a big problem playing top of the crease or beyond. If he is not frozen that extra moment he can still get to the correct angle on that goal. Not sure who passed it but heat of the moment it was a awesome play essentially creating more or less a tap in shot by convincing the whole Leaf team he was the shooter.

Depth of goalie play is team/goalie preference dictated by defensive systems and goalie strengths and weaknesses. Then with in that it is also a situational read by the goalie.

Quick and Henrik have done alright so either way works if done right.


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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:19 am 
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First things first- your coach said you weren't goalie material after one practice at age 6??? Nothing like patience! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Chris18 wrote:
First things first- your coach said you weren't goalie material after one practice at age 6??? Nothing like patience! :lol:


Well, admittedly at the time I was a royal pain in the ass at 6 (I never, ever shut up and bugged the hell outta him, not that I meant to) he was a pretty gruff guy who kinda put me in my place. The year before that I literally had NO idea what I was doing on the ice. I didn't even know what off-sides was. I just thought the refs blew the whistle because we needed a break. :lol:

But yeah, it was a complete joke, me in the pads. I skated out there and right away the weight of them hit me...I could barely move. The stick was so heavy I had to kick it to move it. And I've always, always had trouble throwing and catching stuff (I got into hockey so I didn't HAVE to deal with that stuff, y'know) and so using the blocker or mitt was just not gonna happen. And remember, I couldn't move the stick with one hand, it was like a solid piece of oak. Pucks just whizzed past me up high, down low...yeah, even the nicest coach would have told me to never again don those pads. And he wasn't the nicest guy. :lol: That coach and I actually reunited and sat down for a beer with my dad at my youth league's alumni game a few years back at the Pepsi Center. He's still the same and we had a good laugh about my stint under his tutelage (FYI, Patty and Chuck, our team was known as the Sweet-Tooth Sabres because either a candy store or dental group sponsored us, can't remember). Good times.

Oh, and Craig, I believe that was Nikolaj Ehlers who set up Laine's slapshot. That could be a pretty potent scoring line (plus whoever the center happens to be) for the Jets for a long time to come.

This is good stuff, thanks guys. If I do the research I may expand on it, maybe make a blog entry. But if I do so I will cite my sources!

I'll have to see how Hitch has his goalies play. I got the impression they stay back and the team clears rebounds in the slot.

I'm trying to think of the more unconventional goalies, like Hasek and Tim Thomas. I thought the Dominator played fairly close so his "snow angel" routine covered as much crease as possible. No idea on Timmy.

Jeff, whenever you'd like please give me a breakdown of Roman Cechmanek's style. No rush.

Okay, last entry in a really long post I promise...if Felix Potvin was the king of close-in goalies (seriously did he even venture outside the goal line?) I wonder who the most aggressive was (and please, no Wandering Roy jokes)?


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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:38 pm 
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What kid could move in goalie pads back then? Or use the solid oak (probably ash?) sticks we all had? :lol:

I've had conversations with a few of my old coaches too. Always enlightening.

But yeah, goalies. DiPietro used to come out really far to challenge shooters. I'd always worry he'd blow a hip out trying to get back into the crease.

I remember thinking Potvin had a weird 2-tone nameplate during a game when he was with the Isles. Turned out it was either dirt, rust, or relatively fresh paint from the crossbar. He would keep his back against the crossbar a lot. I wondered if he did it to know where he was or if he did it to have an extra split-second to watch the puck coming in.

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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Yeah I imagine Snow was DEFINITELY in-the-crease, especially since his gigantic pads covered the width of the net when he went down. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:09 pm 
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I remember reading a goalie magazine about Hasek's style. He had a great first butterfly that covered a lot of the net. But he had probably the best understanding of vertical angles in the league. He knew when to get down to cover the bottom of the net but at the same time eliminating the angle to score higher. His puck tracking was inhuman and so he was great at making recovery/secondary saves. He was also great at keeping shooters guessing, which Brodeur mentioned as being part of his game.

Cechmanek...Hitchcock? Really don't know other than he was awful to watch. Like you say, I really wonder how much of Hitchcock's systems kept high danger chances to a minimum along with effectiveness in keeping rebounds away. Maybe Bruce can chime in here. Same with Potvin. I know early on he was reflexive but evolved his style over time. He's credited with paddle-down too.

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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Reading so many conflicting reports. Babcock has been quoted as saying he isn't messing with Freddy's game, but I imagine there wouldn't be so much talk about it if he weren't playing farther out of the crease than he had been in Anaheim. Read on one of Friedman's articles that the common observation is that he isn't able to get his feet set because he's too busy wandering out.

But this could all be for naught, he turned in a pretty good performance the other night against the Habs.


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 Post subject: Re: Goaltending question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:50 am 
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Location: Too deep in crease.
babcock commented last year a few times that he had little to do with the goalies game other than who played.

Kinda recall using the "that is what the goalie coach is for" line.

He also is getting bad reads and getting caught out high frozen which makes it seem he is father out than normal.


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